I agree with most of your issues ,but I also think that is most of the
fun of LETTERBOXING is the research !
Discovering places ,and parks where you have never been to B/4.

I research all my new letterbox clues B/4 I go to that town.

I obtain detailed MAPS of the town ,or area I am going to . (B/4 I GO )

Mystery boxes I try to solve the clues B/4 I even leave my house. (try
to anyway).

It does get a bit crazy when you are in a strange town and are trying to
do many boxes .Sometimes it takes more than one visit to that town to
find them all.

People should try to use permanent landmarks as reference points.That is
sometimes a problem.

Try driving ,reading your maps, and clues in a strange town
......solo... he he

Just my 2 cents ..
Have fun (it's only a game) and don't give up.


P172F187X39E2



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with your points.

I think it is polite to start your directions from an Interstate /
limited access highway exit. If one is not around then the
intersection of a numbered US highway and a numbered state highway.

I just did a series of boxes that required a 400 foot (+/-) climb up
a mountain. Tiring for me, but too much for some people.

Maybe the webmasters could add to their excellent new site some
standard field boxes for length or climb. They could be set up as
keys to limit a search. Just an idea.
The Bird Stamper

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "babybearlb2002"
wrote:
> Not that anyone cares, but thought I would sum up some of my
> frustration from our recent letterboxing tour through the mid-
west.
> Some may not agree with my thoughts, and that is fine (I will try
to

.........

On 7/3/03 1:59 PM, "babybearlb2002" wrote:

> Not that anyone cares, but thought I would sum up some of my
> frustration from our recent letterboxing tour through the mid-west.
> Some may not agree with my thoughts, and that is fine (I will try to
> avoid your boxes in the future since they probably will not be found
> anyway). Here it goes:
>
> 1) Write your clues as if you are not from the area. When an out of
> state boxer is looking for a street in a large town, with no other
> reference point, it wastes a lot of time. Also turns off new boxers
> if they can't even find where to start from. Suggest you give
> directions on how to get to starting place for hike.
>
> 2) Give a starting place. Clues are worthless if you don't even
> know where the person started from. "The Parking Lot" may be good
> enough, unless it is bigger than a football field, or if you give a
> clue like in #3.
>
> 3) Give more specific directions. "From the parking lot, go
> Southwest to the cliff, and look under a rock" is a huge area to
> cover. Spent an hour on one of these, and never did find the box.
>
> 4) Give multiple reference points. Many times the log or stump you
> reference is gone in a year, thus no one knows how to find the box.
> Suggest you list multiple landmarks so a person can move on if one
> is missing.
>
> 5) Give distances. Often found myself second guessing if I had past
> up box since had no idea how far the hike was to be.
>
> 6) Not an issue for me, but is for some. Give easy of hike. If it
> is a 5 mile hike going uphill 4,000 feet, let people know this. I
> like the challenge, but some may not. Before they drive all the way
> to your starting place then find out the hike is not for them, would
> have been better if you just noted the difficulty in your clues (or
> distance at least - #5).
>
> I guess that covers the main issues. Like I said, some of you may
> not agree with this, but felt I had to share. I don't mind your
> clues that make you think, but at least give some of the information
> needed. If nothing else a starting place.
>
> Trip total:
>
> 40+ found
> 20+ missing or unfindable (Lincoln, Nebraska 3 for 15, yuk)
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> .

Thank you!


I agree! Including what vetaran letterboxers should do when introducing
someone to the sport/hobbie, if possible give them the clues to a Letterbox
that gave you a rewarding search and make sure the letterbox is still there
before sending them. I made a mistake of sending someone on one I had not
tried and has not yet produced a box. They are still trying as we speak
but at this point I am not sure he would go for another.

I am wondering has anyone thought about rating the boxes 1-10, with 10
meeting a certain criteria ?
or class boxes as hard, medium, or easy! I am fairly new to this and may
be the 1000th person who has asked that very question.

One more thing, I find the ones with the riddles and rhymes a lot of fun
but not ones that need a masters degree to solve. Example a pond way up
high , we all know it is water of some sort but we do not know exactly what
we will find.

Just my two cents!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh , Chris ......How many letterboxes have you placed ? I forgot the
number ...


P172F187X39E2

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, motofranz@w... wrote:
> Try driving ,reading your maps, and clues in a strange town
> ......solo... he he
>
> Just my 2 cents ..
> Have fun (it's only a game) and don't give up.
>
>
> P172F187X39E2

Even better, try it with rather talkative 4-1/2 yo and 19 mo in the
background (or on your back for that matter)! ;)

I just chalk it up to an inability to 'focus'. As for boxes we've
attempted without success, we'd be well on our way to about 600
found these days had we found them all instead of hovering at our
current plateau of 436 found... Just another interesting and
sometimes frustrating part of letterboxing...

dvn2r ckr

In a message dated 7/3/2003 2:08:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
babybearlb2002@yahoo.com writes:

> Trip total:
>
> 40+ found
> 20+ missing or unfindable (Lincoln, Nebraska 3 for 15, yuk)

Hah! Let me get this straight. You are having an issue because you found 2
out of every 3 you looked for? Wow. ::grin:: You must get easily
frustrated. Seems like a pretty good success rate to me. I'm lucky if I get 1 out of
2. But, to your point . . .

On the one hand, I am like you, I like to lay out my clues very well. I like
the directions to be clear. There is no excuse for poor directions.

However, I do feel that the letterbox hunt begins as soon as you see the
clue. You have to decipher it and look at street maps and anything else at your
disposal, not just the clues in your hand, to find the box. I think its not
necessarily the job of the letterbox planter to put you at the trailhead, in
fact that is part of the challenge.

How's this for being flip-floppy? If a letterbox planter deliberately leaves
out distance info, trail difficulty info or something else, then that is
okay. But if they didn't do it because they just FORGOT or didn't think it was
important, well, then that's not good and they should be more careful with their
clues. ::grin::

Happy hunting,
Annette
(aka ARose)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What makes a frustrating clue for one person, makes a thrilling
challenge for someone else. I agree, it can be disheartening to
arrive at a location and not find a box - or to have difficulty in
finding the location at all.

But then, there are boxes like "The Bard's Tale" in Colorado, which
the planter assumes will take years to decipher. Years!

There are no rules to letterboxing. No set standards for what makes
a good clue, and what is not. Some clues list all the roads, every
pace, and every fallen log. Others simply list something odd like a
gravestone marker and nearby landmark - and that's it. Brilliant!

Bottom line - do your homework before you box. I learned that lesson
the hard way in AZ when I took on a hike that was out of my ability
range. Homework involves more than clues and directions, it involves
terrain, weather, and sometimes decoding, or reading in Polish.

That - is the beauty of letterboxing.
Autumn

I agree.

The hunt starts at viewing the clue. Not everyone wants to hold your hand
or put out a neon sign that says, "it's right here!"

Sometimes obscure start points are on purpose and you simply have to exhaust
the possibilities.

There are no guarantees that you find the box. I was told early on, some
boxes are never found.

CR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Autumn"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Frustrating Clues - No Fun for You or Me


[snip]
> There are no rules to letterboxing. No set standards for what makes
> a good clue, and what is not. Some clues list all the roads, every
> pace, and every fallen log. Others simply list something odd like a
> gravestone marker and nearby landmark - and that's it. Brilliant!
[snip]

HI BabyBear, Since most of my boxes are in the midwest, please let me know
which ones you had trouble with ....then I can fix them or repair them. Thanks
again for your note.

My and my family & friends' boxes are planted under the following names:
SWIAALB
CapComDude
Nishot,
MjLikePink
SPACEDAW
Mohmers
Buggins
The Shavers
LetterCacher

Thanks for your help,
Kay aka Mohmers




In a message dated 7/3/03 2:09:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
babybearlb2002@yahoo.com writes:

> Subj: [LbNA] Frustrating Clues - No Fun for You or Me
> Date: 7/3/03 2:09:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> From: babybearlb2002@yahoo.com
> Reply-to: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> Not that anyone cares, but thought I would sum up some of my
> frustration from our recent letterboxing tour through the mid-west.
> Some may not agree with my thoughts, and that is fine (I will try to
> avoid your boxes in the future since they probably will not be found
> anyway). Here it goes:
>
> 1) Write your clues as if you are not from the area. When an out of
> state boxer is looking for a street in a large town, with no other
> reference point, it wastes a lot of time. Also turns off new boxers
> if they can't even find where to start from. Suggest you give
> directions on how to get to starting place for hike.
>
> 2) Give a starting place. Clues are worthless if you don't even
> know where the person started from. "The Parking Lot" may be good
> enough, unless it is bigger than a football field, or if you give a
> clue like in #3.
>
> 3) Give more specific directions. "From the parking lot, go
> Southwest to the cliff, and look under a rock" is a huge area to
> cover. Spent an hour on one of these, and never did find the box.
>
> 4) Give multiple reference points. Many times the log or stump you
> reference is gone in a year, thus no one knows how to find the box.
> Suggest you list multiple landmarks so a person can move on if one
> is missing.
>
> 5) Give distances. Often found myself second guessing if I had past
> up box since had no idea how far the hike was to be.
>
> 6) Not an issue for me, but is for some. Give easy of hike. If it
> is a 5 mile hike going uphill 4,000 feet, let people know this. I
> like the challenge, but some may not. Before they drive all the way
> to your starting place then find out the hike is not for them, would
> have been better if you just noted the difficulty in your clues (or
> distance at least - #5).
>
> I guess that covers the main issues. Like I said, some of you may
> not agree with this, but felt I had to share. I don't mind your
> clues that make you think, but at least give some of the information
> needed. If nothing else a starting place.
>
> Trip total:
>
> 40+ found
> 20+ missing or unfindable (Lincoln, Nebraska 3 for 15, yuk)
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just our 2 cents -

1) There's a difference between a walk and a hike. A walk is nice,
flat, leisurely. A hike may actually require one to break a sweat.

2) I agree that there needs to be a bit of a criteria for how people
grade their hikes. Easy for one is not easy for all. Hard for one may
be a snap for others too.

3) Read the clues and do some research before you go somewhere you
have not been. With the friends and acquaintances that we've made in
less than a year of boxing, if I were going to a spot that I did not
know, you BET i would send a quick email to a few people to ask what
I'm in for....

4) Not all placers of letterboxes mean to put boxes out so that you
find them. Some folks will make a huge pile of rocks alongside the
trail so it's obvious you know something's out of whack. Some of us
make it a little tougher.. and a few folks hide them and make vague
clues so that it takes a real pro to find them. Its allll part of
learning who writes in what style and degree of difficulty. I've
found clues that others understand and I've thought were...umm...bad
(yeah, family list here... lol). We can;t stand doing mystery boxes
and usually pound our fists in frustration, then needing someone to
hold our hand to get there.... just the way each person thinks
provides variety in the difficulty.

5) Again, are your hiking or boxing? We go hiking and hope to find
boxes. Other go boxing and might hike because they have to in order
to get the 22 boxes they want that day, etc.

-Steve and Heidi
(PFX 190)


> 40+ found
> 20+ missing or unfindable (Lincoln, Nebraska 3 for 15, yuk)

Ra Ra Steve -- love your number '5' --since I go Hiking to find boxes
and go Boxing to find boxes-- and have fun doing either. It all
depends who my buddie is for the day., but always the magic of the woods
creeps in , going fast or slow ,and I always come back to the car with
a smile and yes, sometimes a 22count!!
Butterfly

Steve and Heidi wrote:

>Just our 2 cents -
>
>1) There's a difference between a walk and a hike. A walk is nice,
>flat, leisurely. A hike may actually require one to break a sweat.
>
>2) I agree that there needs to be a bit of a criteria for how people
>grade their hikes. Easy for one is not easy for all. Hard for one may
>be a snap for others too.
>
>3) Read the clues and do some research before you go somewhere you
>have not been. With the friends and acquaintances that we've made in
>less than a year of boxing, if I were going to a spot that I did not
>know, you BET i would send a quick email to a few people to ask what
>I'm in for....
>
>4) Not all placers of letterboxes mean to put boxes out so that you
>find them. Some folks will make a huge pile of rocks alongside the
>trail so it's obvious you know something's out of whack. Some of us
>make it a little tougher.. and a few folks hide them and make vague
>clues so that it takes a real pro to find them. Its allll part of
>learning who writes in what style and degree of difficulty. I've
>found clues that others understand and I've thought were...umm...bad
>(yeah, family list here... lol). We can;t stand doing mystery boxes
>and usually pound our fists in frustration, then needing someone to
>hold our hand to get there.... just the way each person thinks
>provides variety in the difficulty.
>
>5) Again, are your hiking or boxing? We go hiking and hope to find
>boxes. Other go boxing and might hike because they have to in order
>to get the 22 boxes they want that day, etc.
>
>-Steve and Heidi
>(PFX 190)
>
>
> > 40+ found
>
>
>>20+ missing or unfindable (Lincoln, Nebraska 3 for 15, yuk)
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just have to chime in again on this topic. While I understand that
all possible research should be done in advance, I agree that **in my
personal experience**, Midwest letterboxes can be quite frustrating.

1) Many boxes seem to be orphaned... either planted by people who live
in other places or by people who are no longer active letterboxers. We
have attempted to contact several planters for info and/or
clarification but have had our messages returned or not received
responses from them.

2) Boxes are relatively few and far between, requiring a substantial
effort just to get in the vicinity. The closest boxes to us (that we
have not planted) are at least a 2-hour drive away. Although we do
enjoy the outing on its own merits, it is rather disappointing to
discover that a box is missing and/or unfindable after dedicating quite
a bit of time and energy to it.

3) Often "vague clues" appear to be perfectly concrete until one gets
to the actual site and discovers that there are, say, 30 bushes to look
under instead of one as you would think from the clues.

4) Traffic to these boxes is relatively low, so posting questions to
the list prior to hunting may or may not yield helpful information.

As new letterboxers, we realize we have a lot to learn. Unfortunately,
we don't seem to have much of an opportunity without a vacation to
Connecticut. :(

Kendra
(of Jay & Kendra)

P1 F3 X0 A5

How do you research where a box is located. Can you find detailed
street maps of most towns on the internet? Major cities yes, but
smaller, rural towns can be more difficult. I have used yahoo.maps
but is there a better site?

IF you can sometimes plan your boxing trip pretty far ahead you can
write (or email ) the chamber of commerce of a larger town close to
where you are going
and ask for maps ,info,etc.
I've had good success so far doing that.
John


P172F210X39E2



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use www.mapquest.com I've found the maps to be a little more
detailed (and acurate) than the Yahoo ones. Also I use Microsoft
Streets & Trips (on my PC). I've read the clues, and have marked the
location of the park, for all the letterboxes on the east side of MI.
(and am starting on the west-side ones). This way I can look at map
and see where (approximately) all the boxes are. Very helpfull in
planning a trip.

Windrose
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "ladylee84"
wrote:
> How do you research where a box is located. Can you find detailed
> street maps of most towns on the internet? Major cities yes, but
> smaller, rural towns can be more difficult. I have used yahoo.maps
> but is there a better site?

I agree on your assessment of mapquest vs. yahoo. Have tried some
others also and now stick to mapquest. Mapquest also gives you the
choice of viewing aerial photos of many destinations which is
sometimes helpful for getting a better mental picture.

The nice thing about the Microsoft streets and trips, which came with
our computer package, is that you can choose to plot routes yourself.
This allows you to map a route with several stops.

You can sort of do this on mapquest, but I find it difficult.

So, for locating a single spot or a route from A to B, I find
mapquest easiest. When I want more control or want to go from A to B
to C to D... I like the Microsoft tool.

Cavy Lovers
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "windrose53"
wrote:
> I use www.mapquest.com I've found the maps to be a little more
> detailed (and acurate) than the Yahoo ones. Also I use Microsoft
> Streets & Trips (on my PC). I've read the clues, and have marked
the
> location of the park, for all the letterboxes on the east side of
MI.
> (and am starting on the west-side ones). This way I can look at map
> and see where (approximately) all the boxes are. Very helpfull in
> planning a trip.
>
> Windrose

I think most of you are missing the point. Baby Bear and I did
do our homework and did use mapquest and physical maps where useful.
The problem is when the clues are given in such a way that only a
person who knows the area can even begin to figure out where to
look on a map (e.g. a small park not found on internet searches). See
the Gunslinger Letterbox clues in Texas if you want an example. I
guess I can't understand why you would hide a box that nobody will
ever visit.

Silver Eagle

Mapquest is pretty good for finding locations with a street address.

I also use Terraserver (http://terraserver.microsoft.com/). Terraserver will display topographic maps and aerial photos which is more helpful in dealing with locations that aren't on a street.

Terraserver has several ways to look up maps including street address and latitude/longitude coordinates.

US Geological Survey has an excellent tool (http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form) for looking up lat/lon coords by feature name. For example, if you were trying to find the lat/lon for Half Dome in Yosemite, you could type Half Dome and select California from the drop down and would get the coordinates: 37d 44' 46" N 119d 31' 55" W.

Of course, the lat/lon input is in decimal degrees so you will have to have a converter which can be found at the JeEep website (http://www.jeeep.com/details/coord/). Putting in Half Dome's standard coords gives me 37.74611, -119-531944. Putting these into Terraserver will give me both a topo map of the area and an aerial photo of Half Dome.
___________________________
Eric Polk
----- Original Message -----
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "ladylee84"
wrote:
> How do you research where a box is located. Can you find detailed
> street maps of most towns on the internet? Major cities yes, but
> smaller, rural towns can be more difficult. I have used yahoo.maps
> but is there a better site?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]